archive.stlimc.org : http://archive.stlimc.org
archive.stlimc.org

News :: Civil and Human Rights

Hizbullah rockets cannot be fired from buildings (ie the one bombed in Qana)

The type of missiles being fired by Hizbullah at Israeli cities cannot be fired from within houses, mosques, hospitals or even UN facilities as has been suggested by the IDF. Due to the massive "back-blast" caused by the rocket launchers of these missiles, they can only be fired from open ground. To fire them from within a building would result in the instant death of the missile crew and probable destruction of the missile before launch. Most of the missiles are truck-mounted and are fired - on open ground - from the backs of flat-bedded trucks or larger four-wheel-drive vehicles.
Hizbullah has fired almost 2,000 missiles into Israel([search]) over the last fortnight, killing more than 50 Israelis and forcing almost one million into air raid shelters.

Despite this provocation, however, Israel's response has been sharply criticised as "disproportionate" in many quarters. In the aftermath of the deaths of dozens of innocent Lebanese women and children at Qana yesterday, even the US has urged the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) to modify their responses to Hizbullah's attacks.

IDF spokespeople are maintaining that Hizbullah had been mounting missile attacks on Israeli territory from Qana in recent days. The IDF has claimed it targeted the three-storey house in Qana at 1.30am local time in the belief it contained a Hizbullah "asset".

Any investigation into the targeting of this house will have to consider precisely what kind of Hizbullah "asset" could possibly have been hidden in a modest, low-rise building among the narrow streets of a village such as Qana.

The type of missiles being fired by Hizbullah at Israeli cities cannot be fired from within houses, mosques, hospitals or even UN facilities as has been suggested by the IDF. Due to the massive "back-blast" caused by the rocket launchers of these missiles, they can only be fired from open ground. To fire them from within a building would result in the instant death of the missile crew and probable destruction of the missile before launch. Most of the missiles are truck-mounted and are fired - on open ground - from the backs of flat-bedded trucks or larger four-wheel-drive vehicles.

When fired, these missiles generate an enormous flare of light, heat and sound energy - a heat and light signature which is readily detected by IDF target-acquisition systems. Accurate retaliatory fire can be directed at Hizbullah launch sites by IDF aircraft and ground artillery in seconds. Such a reaction would be considered by international military norms to be proportionate and within the general "rules of engagement".

In these circumstances, having fired their missiles, Hizbullah tends to disperse as rapidly as possible. It is unlikely that a flat-bedded truck with a multilaunch rocket-system mounted on it could be easily and rapidly hidden in a village as small as Qana. Nor is it likely that such a truck-mounted weapon or four-wheel-drive vehicle could easily be hidden in a house such as the one targeted by the IDF yesterday.

The pattern and circumstances of the attack are sinister. With no telltale scorch marks from a Hizbullah missile launch visible near the destroyed house, and with no Hizbullah fighters among the dead and injured, the question remains as to what kind of "asset" the IDF could credibly allege to have been contained within the building.

The timing of the attack, taking place as it did during a period of relative calm and not in the immediate aftermath of a Hizbullah missile launch, speaks of a punitive strike designed simply to kill members of the Shia community from which Hizbullah is drawn and receives its moral support. The targeting of unarmed Shia women and children would represent a deliberate targeting of innocent civilians for retaliatory or punitive purposes, and may well constitute a war crime.

Tom Clonan is The Irish Times security analyst.
 
 

Comments

Re: Hizbullah rockets cannot be fired from buildings (ie the one bombed in Qana)

Hizbullah has fired almost 2,000 missiles into Israel([search]) over the last fortnight, killing more than 50 Israelis and forcing almost one million into air raid shelters.

Despite this provocation, however, Israel's response has been sharply criticised as "disproportionate" in many quarters.


provocation? the rocket attacks didn't originally start until after israel started shelling southern lebanon([search]). israel barely made a disguised public relations attempt (psych warfare?) at a cease fire while they continued shelling suspected hez positions which, in the context of 4GW or guerrilla warfare, means everybody who didn't evacuate after the leaflet drops are considered legit targets. (conversely, seeing as how there is mandatory inscription in israel, does that not then imply that all households are also legit targets? can't have it both ways, right dersh?)

bloomberg: Israeli Raid Into Lebanon Draws Record Number of Rocket Attacks
www.bloomberg.com/apps/news
Israeli commandos attacked the eastern Lebanon town of Baalbeck in the deepest raid into the country since fighting with Hezbollah began four weeks ago, the army said.

The Shiite terrorist group responded by firing a record 155 rockets into northern Israel, hitting cities including Acre, Dir al-Assad and Kiryat Shmona. One person was killed and 49 were injured, police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said by phone.

``It is the highest number of rockets that have landed in Israel since the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah fighters began on July 12,'' Rosenfeld said.


those raids included bombing a hospital in baalbeck.

back to the qana massacre, the red cross is declaring that no rockets were fired from the qana that day.

'No Hezbollah Rockets Fired from Qana'
www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14320.htm
Red Cross workers and residents of Qana, where Israeli bombing killed at least 60 civilians, have told IPS that no Hezbollah rockets were launched from the city before the Israeli air strike.



Qana had been a shelter because no rockets were being fired from there, survivors said. "When Hezbollah fires their rockets, everyone runs away because they know an Israeli bombardment will come soon," Abdel said. "That is why everyone stayed in the shelter and nearby homes, because we all thought we'd be all right since there were no Hezbollah fighters in Qana."

Lebanese Red Cross workers in the nearby coastal city of Tyre told IPS that there was no basis for Israeli claims that Hezbollah had launched rockets from Qana.

"We found no evidence of Hezbollah fighters in Qana," Kassem Shaulan, a 28-year-old medic and training manager for the Red Cross in Tyre told IPS at their headquarters. "When we rescue people or recover bodies from villages, we usually see rocket launchers or Hezbollah fighters if they are there, but in Qana I can say that the village was 100 percent clear of either of those."

Another Red Cross worker, 32-year-old Mohammad Zatar, told IPS that "we can tell when Hezbollah has been firing rockets from certain areas, because all of the people run away, on foot if they have to."


israel has a seemingly pathological inclination to blame anyone but themselves for even their most egregious acts. we've watched this time & again. and they're used to getting away w/ it, although that tide is shifting thanks to increased public exposure to what actually goes on. while the fourth estate in this country remains prostrate before empire & its proxy, their lies (including the lies of omission) & calculated propaganda cannot cover up such bold war crimes for long.
 

provocation

silising'wi, I'm totally with you on your clarification of the timecourse of events, including the Israel([search])'s initial bombing campaign (which was planned a year in advance). I do think, however, that the article makes a great point about not being able to fire rockets from inside buildings, due to logistical and technical reasons.

mb
 

Re: provocation

mb- agreed in that, for any long-range missiles. see www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hizballah-rockets.htm

haaretz: www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745185.html
As the Israel([search]) Air Force continues to investigate the air strike, questions have been raised over military accounts of the incident.

It now appears that the military had no information on rockets launched from the site of the building, or the presence of Hezbollah men at the time.

The Israel Defense Forces had said after the deadly air-strike that many rockets had been launched from Qana. However, it changed its version on Monday.

The site was included in an IAF plan to strike at several buildings in proximity to a previous launching site. Similar strikes were carried out in the past. However, there were no rocket launches from Qana on the day of the strike.
 

more on missiles

the article focuses on the larger missiles, which were the acknowledged target in the early IDF stmts, as they claimed to be trying to neutralize points of attack on israeli population ctrs.

the rockets that are aimed toward israel([search]) are one thing. then there are the shoulder-fired missiles, which can take out ground & air vehicles and have a range up to around 5,500 meters. i've read where some poli's have expressed concern that iranian-made versions of the SA-7 and QW-1, or chinese MANPADS have made their way to hez, though i haven't come across any confirmation nor dug deep enough to find out. also, seeing as how the u.s. is the world's largest weapons dealer & given the incredible scope & scale of the black market economy, it wouldn't be surprising for some of their arms to show up by whatever route, as well. and russian weapons, etc.

i would assume that shoulder-fired missiles are discharged from w/i such structures, though i am basing this on superficial investigation & no specific knowledge base in this area. the HN-5 is shown mounted indoors here www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/images/hn-5_1.jpg
 

anti-tank missiles, hecho en estado unidos de américa

guardian: Computerised weaponry and high morale
[search])/Story/0,,1842276,00.html">www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1842276,00.html

Hizbullah's older anti-tank weapons have been effective against armoured personnel carriers and buildings used by soldiers for shelters. Its newer weapons such as the Russian Kornet and US TOW missiles have been highly effective succeeded in piercing the armour of Israel's main battle tank, the Merkava, reputedly one of the best-defended tanks in the world.

call it irony or whatever, but some of those tow's are no doubt part of the arms package that israel delivered to iran in july 1985.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BGM-71_TOW

30 Tanks Wiped Out in Lebanon([search])
www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3

(IsraelNN.com) IDF officials admit that the biggest surprise of the ongoing war against Hizbullah is the ease by which terrorists have destroyed IDF tanks.

At least 30 tanks have been totally destroyed or seriously damaged in bomb and anti-tank rocket attacks involving state-of-the-art Russian anti-tank rockets.

About one-half of the military personnel killed in southern Lebanon were inside tanks.
 

missiles

The Missiles of August
[excerpt]

In sum, Hezbullah's arsenal includes the following missiles:

122mm Katyushas: range 13 miles, warhead 6 kg,:

122mm improved Katyushas: range 19 miles, warhead, 6 kg;

220mm Syrian rockets: range 43 miles, warhead 40 kg;

240mm rockets: range 6 miles, warhead 18kg;

240mm Iranian Fajr 3: range 26 miles, warhead 50 kg;

333mm Iranian Fajr 5: range 46 miles, warhead 90 kg;

302mm Iranian Khaibar-1: range 100 miles, warhead 100 kg;

610mm Iranian ZelZal-2: range 130 miles, warhead 400 kg.

Significantly, according to claims by both Hezbollah and Israel([search]), Hezbollah has held in reserve all of its 200-odd Zelzal-2 missiles, which have a range of up to 200 kilometers — capable of reaching Tel Aviv. The Zelzal missiles are road-mobile, solid-propellant systems, about which little is known. They are most likely unguided or use a rudimentary inertial system; when properly launched, such rockets would be accurate to within several kilometers of their target, enough to hit a city like Tel Aviv.

Given all that, it's a reasonable supposition that Sheikh Nasrullah and Hezbollah were ordered by their Iranian backers to keep in reserve the Zelzals, as well as a significant number of the Iranian Fajr-5 missiles (of which the Khaibar-1 is believed by many analysts to be a modified variant).

Hezbollah's Katyushas are the furthest thing from the latest designs. Predating venerable weapon systems such as the AK-47 assault rifle and B-52 bomber, these generic short-range rockets were given their name by the Soviet troops who first fired them at German forces during World War II.

For all the Katyusha's vintage provenance, however, it has defeated futuristic attempts at missile defense like the Tactical High Energy Laser (THEL), a U.S.-Israeli attempt to create a high-energy chemical laser that could detonate the missiles in midflight. In fact, it's indicative of the difficulties of short-range missile defense that the THEL prototype was approximately the size of six city buses; according to Subrata Ghoshroy, a military analyst at MIT who studied the project in 1996, not only would the system have been "a sitting duck" on a battlefield, but also any fractures of its fuel tanks would have released potentially deadly gas over its crew and bystanders. Although in 2000 the THEL was able to shoot down two Katyushas simultaneously during tests when no cloud cover impeded it, Katyusha rockets were designed to be fired from truck-mounted launchers in barrages of up to 50.

[/excerpt]
 

missiles

 

missiles

ze'ev schiff in ha'aretz: The war's surprises
www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/751958.html

[excerpt]

Anti-tank weapons caused most of the IDF casualties in the war - nearly all the Armored Corps' casualties and many from the infantry units. More infantry soldiers were killed by anti-tank weapons than in hand-to-hand combat. Many of the infantry soldiers who lost their lives because of anti-tank weapons entered houses in the villages; the rockets penetrated the walls, killing them.



Hezbollah used seven different types of rockets in the war - four of them the most advanced available and all produced by Russia and sold to Syria. The most advanced rockets can penetrate steel armor of 70-centimeter to 1.2-meter thickness. After the armor has been pierced, a second warhead explodes inside the tank. MI acquired one of these rockets and understood that Hezbollah was positioning anti-tank units. However, the IDF was inadequately prepared for this development.

Four Israeli tanks hit large landmines. Three of the tanks, which lacked underbelly protective armor, lost all 12 crew members. The fourth had underbelly protective armor; of its six crew members, only one died.

Anti-tank missiles hit 46 tanks and 14 other armored vehicles. In all these attacks, the tanks sustained only 15 armor penetrations while the other armored vehicles sustained five, with 20 soldiers killed, 15 of them tank crew members. Another two Armored Corps soldiers, whose bodies were exposed, were killed. In another location, Wadi Salouki, Hezbollah carried out a successful anti-tank ambush, hitting 11 tanks. Missiles penetrated the armor of three tanks; in two of them, seven Armored Corps soldiers were killed. Two of the other tanks were immobilized.

[/excerpt]

4 +
46 +
14 +
11 +
——-
75
 

Re: Re: Hizbullah rockets cannot be fired from buildings (ie the one bombed in Qana)

Over time, demonic entities made their way into the Titans' worlds from the Twisting Netherwow goldworld of warcraft goldwow gold kaufenbuy wow gold, and the Pantheon elected its greatest warrior, Sargeras, to act as its first line of defense. A noble giant of molten bronze, wow geldwow goldworld of warcraft goldwow powow orwow goldSargeras carried out his duties for countless millennia, seeking out and destroying these demons wherever he could find them. Over the eons, Sargeras encountered two powerful demonic races,world of warcraft goldwow gold kaufenbuy wow goldwow geldboth of which were bent on gaining power and dominance over the physical universe.wow goldworld of warcraft goldwow powow orwow goldworld of warcraft goldwow gold kaufenbuy wow goldwow geldwow goldThe eredar, an insidious race of devilish sorcerers, used their warlock magics to invade and enslave a number of worlds. The indigenous races of those worlds were mutated by the eredar's malevolent powers and turned into demons themselves. world of warcraft goldwow powow orwow goldworld of warcraft goldwow gold kaufenThough Sargeras' nearly limitless powers were more than enough to defeat the vile eredar, he was greatly troubled by the creatures' corruption and all-consuming evil. Incapable of fathoming such depravity, the great Titan began to slip into a brooding depression. Despite his growing unease, Sargeras rid the universe of the warlocks by trapping them within a corner of the Twisting Netherbuy wow goldwow geldwow goldworld of warcraft goldwow powow orwow goldwow goldwow goldwow goldwow goldwow goldwow goldwow goldWow goldwow goldwow goldwow goldwow gold wow gold wow gold wow gold wow gold.
 

More propaganda

More lies. Israel([search])-US alliance controls the media. They cooperate to never mention Lebonese deaths. They both sit idly by as Ernst Zundel rots in prison for Free Speech. In the US, they agree to cage peaceful demonstrators and ban books like "America Deceived" from Amazon. The only bastion of Free Speech left is the internet. As soon as 'they' realize, the internet will be censored.
Last link (before Google Books is censored):
<a href="http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?&isbn=0-595-38523-0">America Deceived - Book</a>
 

Re: More propaganda

More Propaganda...from you, that is...

Regarding "America Deceived" It was NEVER available via Amazon or B&N. It was published via "Fast Track" at iUniverse.com (a subsidiary of B&N, btw) <b>IT WAS NEVER BANNED FROM ANYWHERE</b>

The author choose not to have it released via B&N or Amazon <b>per iUniverse</b>. Political motivation or just a cheapskate? You decide.

If you would like, you can call them yourself and ask. The phone number for iUniverse is 1-800-AUTHORS. No, really, call them and ask if it was ever distributed by Amazon or B&N and they will tell you it wasn't as it was a "fast Track" publication.

It is the speculation of this commenter that the author of the previous comment is actually the author of the book looking for some easy publicity via blogs. A google search on "America Decieved" will bring up hundreds of very similar comments, but all have the link to iUniverse in them and the "Last link (before Google Books is censored)"

Coincidence?

Mike T on this one, is it? Well, at least that one is original....
 

More propaganda

More lies. Israel([search])-US alliance controls the media. They cooperate to never mention Lebonese deaths. They both sit idly by as Ernst Zundel rots in prison for Free Speech. In the US, they agree to cage peaceful demonstrators and ban books like "America Deceived" from Amazon. The only bastion of Free Speech left is the internet. As soon as 'they' realize, the internet will be censored.
Last link (before Google Books is censored):
<a href="http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?&isbn=0-595-38523-0">America Deceived - Book</a>
 

Re: Hizbullah rockets cannot be fired from buildings (ie the one bombed in Qana)

"More lies. Israel([search])-US alliance controls the media. They cooperate to never mention Lebonese deaths. They both sit idly by as Ernst Zundel rots in prison "
Lebanon([search])? What's going on in Lebanon?
Ernst Zundel is my hero. I'm not sitting idly by. I walk around the house goose stepping and giving the fascist salute like Hezbollah.
 

Re: Hizbullah rockets cannot be fired from buildings (ie the one bombed in Qana)

Israel is like the weather. Everyone complains about it, but no one ever does anything about it.

The imperialists will always attempt to create a decpetive rationality to cover the core selfishness of their actions. Israel([search]) is grabbing land and resources inder the guise of "protecting itself" If that sounds familiar, it's because fascists do it all the time...Hitler in Poland, Bush in Iraq. Note that the Israeli ground force will be pushing north to the Litani River, a great source of good water. Watch'em tap that, and "occupy" southern Lebanon([search]) for a very long time.

As for the rest of Lebanon? There's nothing to worry about there...it will take years for them to rebuild. Israel holds the nuclear card...no one will attack them for fear of setting off a nukefest...and no sympathetic nation loves Lebanon enough to risk their own demise in defense of it. So, the world watches in disgust while the dirty little baby steals another bottle, but does nothing because it figures it will stop when it gets what it wants,(this time it is water), but it will never get rid of it's "enemies", because they need violent dissent in order to justify their own morally inept activities.

As for the Hez rockets incompatability for home use, I think that has been pretty obvious, yet unspoken or unrealized by most folks. The braindead zombies of the world will accept any excuse that sounds reassuring...but bombing a home with high tech missles on suspicion only is a plainly evil deed that finds cover in such deliberate deceptions.

"There where rockets fired from the houses that were destroyed by the Israeli missles". That's the created rationality that allows the horrid killing of innocent civilians. They are only collatoral damage that occured in a military operation. Now here's Bob with the weather.

This is what you get with balls-out capitalism...the military industrial complex must feed itself and "protect" the system that created it. Why spend gazillions on weapons if you ain't gonna use 'em? We need enemies! Lots of 'em! Enemies with oil and water!
 

Re: Hizbullah rockets cannot be fired from buildings (ie the one bombed in Qana)

That's all well and good as a claim- but let's talk brass tacks here- which missiles have been fired and what are their specifications? I know more than only one kind of missile has been fired into Israel([search]).
However that is NOTHING compared to the sick murderous arab holocaust that the Israelis are so thinly vieled as having as a true motive for all of their actions. What murder they have inflicted upon the peaceful non combatant women and children of Lebanon([search]). Not to mention that the men who fight Israel from Lebanon are fighting for Israel to get the hell out of their homeland and dissassemble the Nazi-esque occupying force that has invaded Palestine([search])- aka Israel. This is the sickest most unmerited cowardly act in this century with the close runners up as Afghanistan, Iraq, Yugoslavia, and Chechnya.
Israel has no excuse for their actions on any level whatsoever. NONE.
No excuse. This was COMPLETELY AVOIDABLE
The Zionists smelled an opportunity to begin the Arab Holocaust is what really happened.
 

Re: Hizbullah rockets cannot be fired from buildings (ie the one bombed in Qana)

The Ballad of Ahkmed......to the tune of the Beverly Hillbillies.

Come and listen to a story of a man named Ahkmed
A poor country man, 72 virgins in his head.
Then one day he was shooting at some jews,
a bomb dropped over head before he lit the fuse.
(IDF that is, blackhawks, F-16's)
Well the first thing you know his head rolled over there
Kin folk said "lets get the hell outa here!"

Said Damascus is the place you oughta be
So they loaded up the mule and they started to flee
(Assad, Intolerance, no jews!)

Well it's time to say goodbye to Ahkmed and all his kin
This is a war that they will never win!
They're not invited back again to this locality
If you follow Hizballah thats the way it's gonna be
(Refugees, that's what they call 'em now,
Heh folks Dont come back now, ya hear?)
 

Re: Hizbullah rockets cannot be fired from buildings (ie the one bombed in Qana)

I think its pretty clear that all of the bombings have nothing to do with Hezbollah. The Israelis have started bombing northern Lebanon([search]) which is mostly Christian and Hezbollah have to standing there what so ever, so in the end... Its all pretty clear this is just a farce and an attempt to scare the people off so they can occupy the land freely up to the Litani river and snatch it and its water minus the indigenous population.
 

Re: Hizbullah rockets cannot be fired from buildings (ie the one bombed in Qana)

What about from the roof, as opposed to "inside" the building.

Your article is technically correct. But your conclusion doesn't follow. If the rocket can be launched from the back of a Pick-Up truck it most certainly can be launched from the roof of a building.

Also an MLRS and a Katushka are two different things you shouldn't conflate them.

You should think critically about what the Hiz Agitprop department is telling you before parroting it.
 

Re: Hizbullah rockets cannot be fired from buildings (ie the one bombed in Qana)

"What about from the roof, as opposed to "inside" the building."

When it comes to arab propaganda, you're not supposed to use your brain.
 

Re: Re: Hizbullah rockets cannot be fired from buildings (ie the one bombed in Qana)

which is step up from that of the israeli-u.s. axis, which posits that you don't even have a brain (or heart) to begin w/
 

Re: Hizbullah rockets cannot be fired from buildings (ie the one bombed in Qana)

Are yo denying that the Hizbulla is using civilians as a human shield? -- We all saw on TV Hizbulla rockets that are being fired from a densly populated areas. The Hizbulla even doesn't deny that and how can they... I guess that there is no end for hypocrisy.
 

huh?

Are yo [sic] denying that the Hizbulla is using civilians as a human shield?

yes. look into the facts, rather than rely on corporate media coverage. there are reports from humanitarian groups which debunk this "human shield" nonsense. this is apparent when you look at many of the targets of israeli shelling. they are aggressive, offensive tactics, nothing close to what reasonable people could ever term as "defensive" strikes. please provide sourcing for your remark that The Hizbulla even doesn't deny that. television will rot your brain. quit it.

now if you want to talk about true hypocrisy - or rather, cynicism - check this
www.stlimc.org/mod/comments/display/3467/index.php
 

Re: Re: Hizbullah rockets cannot be fired from buildings (ie the one bombed in Qana)

"they are aggressive, offensive tactics, nothing close to what reasonable people could ever term as "defensive" strikes."

LOL!!! War is not reasonable. Hezbollah is lucky that their enemy is Israel([search]). Using Arab rules of engagement, there wouldn;t be anything left to whine about.
Hama Rules! Black September!
 

well aren't we full of worthless rejoinders today

joining the idf on the losing side of this battle, aren't ya

no, war is not definately not a reasonable endeavor, but analysis of it had better be if you want to stop/prevent/understand it, in addition to having anyone bother paying attention when posting in the public realm.

"arab rules of engagement"? well, aren't you the enlightened one...
 

Re: Re: Re: Hizbullah rockets cannot be fired from buildings (ie the one bombed in Qana)

"arab rules of engagement"? well, aren't you the enlightened one..."

You are familiar with "Hama Rules" aren't you?
www.mafhoum.com/press2/63P58.htm
(enlightened and well educated)
 

Re: Hizbullah rockets cannot be fired from buildings (ie the one bombed in Qana)

Are yo denying that the Hizbulla is using civilians as a human shield? -- We all saw on TV Hizbulla rockets that are being fired from a densly populated areas. The Hizbulla even doesn't deny that and how can they... I guess that there is no end for hypocrisy.
 

Account Login

Media Centers

Quote-of-the-Moment

An inglorious peace is better than a dishonorable war.
-- Mark Twain
Source: "Glances at History" (suppressed)
 

This site made manifest by dadaIMC software